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*** Irena_Lieberman
has joined #DFN
DFN: Welcome,
Irena!
Irena_Lieberman:
Hi!
Jacqueline:
welcome!!
DFN: Okay, we
will begin. I am Robert, your chat moderator. If things get out
of hand, and there are too many questions asked, I will then indicate
who should speak first. Otherwise the floor is yours! We will
now begin. How are you, Ms. Lieberman?
Irena_Lieberman:
Good! Thanks so much for having me here today. I am happy to be
here.
DFN: Can you
describe an example of a case you have worked on involving Afghan
women's rights?
Irena_Lieberman:
Sure. I have a client who is an Afghan woman who is a peace activist.
She has worked for NGOs in Pakistan and she worked at the grass
roots level there to help women access health care and underground
educational programs. This was during the reign of the Taliban.
Most of her family was killed during an attack by the mujahedeen
in the early 1990's. Her husband was imprisoned as well. She was
forced to flee into Pakistan, where she began working on behalf
of Afghan woman and she risked her life to do so. She was followed
and intimidated by the Taliban. She received many death threats,
and they threatened to kill her if she didn't stop working.
DFN: Why did
she come to you?
Irena_Lieberman:
She came to the US because she was enrolled in a peace-building
institute and she remained here. She heard about the Tahirih Justice
Center (where I work) and she wanted political asylum. She was
granted political asylum along with her two young sons a year
ago. The US government recognized the threats she faced at the
hands of the Taliban were persecution under the law. It was persecution
on account of her religion: she was Muslim but the Taliban accused
her of practicing Christianity. This was because she was so active,
they thought she couldn't possibly be Muslim. So a ground for
her case was that she faced religious persecution.
DFN: Interesting.
Jacqueline:
Hi Irena! But what about the women who are not able to get to
the US through such a program. Are there other ways women find
you? And, I am not sure if you can comment on this, but what do
you feel are going to be the major challenges facing Afghan women
as the country rebuilds?
| The
majority of emigrant Afghan women are trying to get
into the United States, but fewer and fewer have been
allowed in, says Lieberman. |
|
Irena_Lieberman:Jacqueline,
great question. This client was a unique case. The majority of
emigrant Afghan women refugees are trying to come to the US. She
was in the US to begin with. Most want to be resettled in the
US. There is a "women at risk" program. This program
has the goal of identifying women who at particular risk for violence
such as widows and young girls. However, in recent months, fewer
and fewer women have been allowed into the US. We get calls from
Pakistan, Iran, India, and Russia. They hear of us through word
of mouth.
DFN: What about
the second part of Jacqueline's question?
Irena_Lieberman:
Yes. One of the more interesting challenges is the ability for
women to put differences aside and realize that they are all working
for the same thing regardless of whether one chooses to wear the
burqa or not. I see the greatest challenge as the most basic:
to ensure adequate health care. Without this basic need, particularly
for women and children, it will be impossible to regain a position
in society.
The most important
challenge is the basic needs that have to be fulfilled: infrastructure,
health care, education... before anything else can happen. There
is an incredibly high rate of depression. So health care would
include both physical AND mental health needs.
Jacqueline:
Are Afghan women considering those who wear the burqa as less
"equal" ?
Irena_Lieberman:
Jacqueline, by who? By whom are they considered less equal?
Jacqueline:
Afghan women.
Irena_Lieberman:
Jacqueline, this is a difficult question. Afghan women have a
difficult relationship with the burqa in general. There are all
kinds of positions. In general, Afghan women recognize the burqa
as either something they hate, and think no one should wear it,
or else they think all should choose to wear it.
DFN: Do you
think most are against it?
Irena_Lieberman:
DFN, I wouldn't say that. Many wear it because they are afraid
of violence if they don't wear it. I would say there is the same
degree of variance of opinion about it as there would be about
other things. It's safe to say that while many are against it,
at the same time many view it as part of their culture.
DFN: Thank you.
Next question?
amir: what are
some of the challenges facing Afghan women who seek asylum? for
example, how do they prove that they deserve asylum status?
Irena_Lieberman:
Amir, they face similar challenges as those from other countries.
Given that, in many cases of Afghan women, there may be elements
of sexual abuse. For example: if a woman was raped by a member
of the Taliban, not only would there be no proof of the rape other
than her own word, she may face severe cultural restraints which
would prevent her from even talking about the rape.
For example, in many
cases an Afghan family will seek asylum but the principal applicant
in the woman's husband. The woman may have an even stronger claim
but she may so afraid of her husband's reaction that she may not
even reveal that she was raped to the INS [Immigration and Naturalization
Service]. I would say then that the two biggest challenges would
be evidence gathering and overcoming cultural pressures so that
she is able to talk about what happened to her to the INS and
other adjudicators.
DFN: Thank you.
amir: has it
been easier for Afghan women to get asylum status since Sept.
11? are authorities more suspicious of Muslims entering the country?
| September
11 has raised awareness of the plight of Afghan women,
but at the same time people are more skeptical of their
claims now that the Taliban is not in power. |
|
Irena_Lieberman:
Amir, ummm... I would say in general, yes. But in terms of women
gaining asylum status, that's an interesting question. On the
one hand, September 11 has raised awareness of the plight of Afghan
women, but at the same time, the Taliban has been removed from
power which means that adjudicators might be more skeptical of
claims from Afghanistan. There may be a false sense among adjudicators
in the US that the immediate results of the reconstruction and
removal of the Taliban are peace and security and the lessening
of politically motivated violence among Afghans. I think then
in general women may have more trouble but it depends on the individual
case, as for example, an "honor crime" case where a
woman has transgressed a certain rule like adultery and premarital
sex. Those cases would not be as affected.
DFN: What kind
of rights do the Afghan women want? Are they still for the large
part—devout Muslims?
Irena_Lieberman:
DFN, yes they are. The degree of religiosity varies. It is a Muslim
country. The rights they want are the same rights other women
throughout the world want. Basically, these include adequate health
care, a right to choose aspects of their daily life such such
as what to wear, whether or not they can leave the house, basic
liberties. The right to education is important to all Afghan women,
I think, regardless of their devoutness. There is a general sense
that the right to have a voice is crucial in political, public
life, etc. Finally, the right to be safe from violence.
DFN: Thank you.
Is the United States a top choice, or do Afghan women seek asylum
elsewhere?
Irena_Lieberman:
DFN, the US is definitely a top choice. Particularly this is true
if women have family here. There are large Afghan communities
here. Women who were activists see it as an opportunity to continue
their work. Women who were teachers like the US as well. Women
also go to Canada, Australia, England, France, and other European
countries.
DFN: I see.
Do they have a hard time adjusting?
GlowormGuest:
Will the new government be responsive to women's rights and will
they hold important positions in the new government?
DFN: First DFN,
then Gloworm.
Irena_Lieberman:
DFN, it is difficult because of language barriers and women with
children. Not only are they trying to adjust, there is a lot of
concern for how their children can fit in. I think immigrants
and refugees, particularly women, are seen as vulnerable, and
easy to take advantage of, so there is a lot of fear among refugees.
Even just figuring out how to get housing , benefits, and to learn
the language, finding a job—these are all difficult. Also,
for women who have suffered violence need ongoing medical needs.
DFN: Now Gloworm.
Irena_Lieberman:
Gloworm, it is impossible to predict how the new government will
serve their needs. I am hopeful that things are moving in that
direction, but the fact that there are only two women in positions
of power in Afghanistan right now is somewhat of a cause for concern.
I think there is tremendous pressure on those two women to have
their voices be heard. And people expect them to represent them
to represent all women of Afghanistan.
DFN: Was the
recent "jirga" (assembly of leaders) representative
of most Afghan women?
Irena_Lieberman:
DFN, it's a good first step but it will take a long time before
all Afghan women with all of their diversity will feel as though
they are represented.
DFN:I see. How
do the men feel about all this?
Irena_Lieberman:
Ha ha! Well, there is a sense of fear. But there is a lot of diversity
among Afghan men as well. They have varied degrees of cultural
affiliation and religiosity. They have different views on the
role of women. I have come across liberal Afghan men and believe
in full equality among women and men.
DFN: Are these
the religious ones?
Irena_Lieberman:
In my experiences these men have been less religious, but I am
certain that varies as well.
DFN: How about
[interim leader of Afghanistan]Hamid Karzai?
Irena_Lieberman:
I am not really in a position to judge what he thinks. But, from
what I've seen, women's equality seems to be a priority for him.
DFN: Thank you.
We have 15 more minutes.
Jacqueline:
I'm sorry to be such a question hog.. but i was wondering if you
could explain how someone goes about applying for political asylum.
Irena_Lieberman:
Jacqueline, you are not a hog.
Jacqueline:
thank you!! just curious, i guess
Irena_Lieberman:
In order to apply for asylum, one has to prove that they face
persecution on account of their race, religion, national origin,
political opinion or membership in a particular group. Persecution
must be committed by the government of one's home country or a
group that the government is unable or willing to control. The
individual must be in the US to seek asylum. First, the individual
may apply with the INS. They will then be referred to the immigration
court if the INS doesn't grant their case. After that, they have
the opportunity to appeal if the immigration judge doesn't grant
their case and they can appeal to the board of immigration appeals.
Examples of persecution
may include imprisonment and torture I mean and political demonstrations
against the government. Examples of gender persecution may include
rape, domestic violence, female genital mutilation, and widow
rituals. Widow rituals occur among the Urhobo, for example, in
Nigeria. Some Urhobo believe that if a woman's husband dies young,
that his wife must have killed him!
DFN: Oh my.
Jacqueline:
wow
Irena_Lieberman:
She must prove her innocence by enduing certain rituals. For example:
She must be forced to drink her husband's bath water if he died.
The custom is based on superstition. If she survives the rituals,
the family can still decide her guilt of innocence.
GlowormGuest:
Irena, as you said, many of the women are still devout Muslims
and maybe their sense of rights as we know them, are far different.
The question is do women in the Muslim world have the same rights
as others and do they even want them if they are devoutly religious
and their religion dictates differences that are somewhat unacceptable
in the non-Muslim world?
| "Human
rights are basic and universal and transcend religion,"
says Lieberman. |
|
Irena_Lieberman:
Good question. I would say that when we talk about women's rights
we are talking about human rights which are basic and universal
and transcend religion. Human rights are not a Western concept
and they know no religion. Human rights that Afghan women want
are the same rights that American women have demanded. They are
the right to bodily integrity, the right to be free from violence,
and to be treated as human beings, not as children or slaves or
chattel. Regardless of how different cultures may interpret the
details of daily life the rights that Muslim women want are those
universal rights.
DFN: Thank you.
We have 5 more minutes. Any last questions?
miriam: What
can people, especially in the West, do to help Afghan women seeking
refugee status?
Irena_Lieberman:
Miriam, I think that people in United States can make their voices
heard to the US government and try to raise awareness about the
fact that Afghan refugees are not safe and are seeking protection
in large numbers. While many Afghans have expressed the desire
to return and participate in a historic reconstruction of their
country. We still receive numerous calls for help from refugees.
I think we can show sympathy and understanding as Americans.
GlowormGuest:
So basically, to speak about women's rights is misleading? Are
we really talking human rights and should that be the important
thing to focus on because women's rights may have a very different
cultural connotation?
Irena_Lieberman:
Gloworm, to speak about women's rights is not misleading. When
we must speak about women's rights, we must acknowledge they are
human rights, but we should make this point to show women have
not been treated as humans and until they are treated as humans
we must acknowledge women's rights.
DFN: Okay...
We are going to close up. Irena, thank you very much.
Irena_Lieberman:
Thank you so much. I enjoyed the stimulating questions of the
audience.
DFN: And we
enjoyed you illuminating responses. What is in the future for
you?
Irena_Lieberman:
I will be attending a conference Geneva in May and I'll be presenting
a paper on states' responsibility to protect women from violence
internally.
Jacqueline:
thank you irena.. and thank you DFN.. any upcoming chats planned?
DFN: Next week,
we will be chatting with the parents of imprisoned American activist
Lori Berenson, who is serving a life sentence in Peru for alleged
terrorist activities. Join us!
Jacqueline:
wow.. that sounds so cool..
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